A Place for Love, Hunting for Meaning in Grief: Hunt for the Wilderpeople (2016)

Screen Cares 

Season 3, Episode 41 

Transcript for: A Place for Love, Hunting for Meaning in Grief: Hunt for the Wilderpeople (2016)

<pre-reel comments> Jennie: Hi Listeners, This is Jennie. Sarah and I wanted to give you all a quick note and update before we begin the episode today. We recorded this episode several months ago, after the death of my dog Epona. You may notice references to time that don’t entirely align to the holiday season in which so many of us find ourselves. Speaking of the holiday’s Sarah and I also want to let you know we will be releasing some of our favorite episodes throughout December. We look forward to sharing new Screen Cares conversations with you all soon, and hope you enjoy today’s show and all that these winter months have to offer- especially great movie watching experiences!

Intro 

(music) This is Screen Cares. I'm Jennie and I'm Sarah. And we welcome you to our place to connect beyond the screen and watch better, together. 

Jennie: So Sarah, today's episode is actually a sad episode, but I want to start with something a little bit fun and challenging, and it goes something like this.<Jennie singing> Da da da da da da da da da, Screen Cares is the best! Da da da da da da da da da da da da, Screen Cares is the best! I make this joke because my favorite part of the movie we're gonna discuss today is the Ricky Baker birthday song, which now torments my children because I will forever be like, <Jennie singing> Duh duh duh duh duh duh duh Maxwell Jefferson! When I can't get their attention. This is the song that is sung by Aunt Bella in the movie, Hunt for the Wilderpeople, and she sings it on his 13th birthday, and it's a delight. And it's part of the trailer, and it's part of what drew me into this movie that Netflix kept suggesting and suggesting, and I was like, stop it, Netflix, you don't know me.

And they did. Maybe they do. They did. Dang it, Netflix knew me. And so that's kind of the, um, fun, quirky, and weird introduction to this very fun, quirky, and weird movie that ended up reaching me on a day that was... weird, but sad. And so, today we're gonna talk about The Hunt for the Wilderpeople and how it relates to love and loss and grief and my sweet puppy Epona.

Sarah: I am so glad to be talking about this movie with you and also just to get to talk about Epona with you a little bit more. I mean, I know we've already sort of, we're in it a little bit. We've already talked about um, Epona and Everything that happened the day that you were, you know, choosing this movie.

I have to say, I'm really impressed that you would be ready and willing to pick a movie and a conversation this heavy so soon, because this is a hard topic. This is so. I mean, like, right now, my heart, like, I'm, I'm literally about to start tearing up because I know how much Epona meant to you and means to you today and your whole family.

And this, this stuff is so hard. So I'm, you know, thank you for being vulnerable and sharing such an important topic. 

Jennie: So I think before we go into what the movie is, I think, so that we don't leave listeners kind of hanging, I'll give you the context first, which isn't what we usually do, a few weeks ago, our dog, Epona, who we've had for over 16 years, died unexpectedly, she was a Scottish Terrier. She was a fancy lady.

She had, a couple of years ago, had a really, um, aggressive cancer that required us to remove one of her legs, so she was a proud tripawd of three legs, and she hopped around

t-r-i-p-a-w-d, and so she was a tripawd puppy and she was just inspiring in her resilience and she was wonderful. She went from being a happy little old lady to not able to stand and it was really hard. And we ended up having to euthanize her and it was really, really, really hard and terrible and my kids are now 9 and 11 and they are old enough to know that it was terrible and I'm certainly old enough to know it was terrible and my husband is old enough to know it was terrible and so we had it.

We had just gone and picked out her urn, and we had said goodbye, and left her for the last time, and we came home for movie night the next day, and we had to pick a movie. Because we, I decided it was important to stick to family traditions, and it was my movie night, thank God. I had to pick a movie. I had to pick a movie that, I think I even texted you, Sarah, being like, Hey, I want a movie that is fun, and adventurous, and that is funny, and will help kind of distract us. And so... I thought of all sorts of things. Can you think of... What were some of the things I was coming up with, Sarah?

Can you even remember? 

Sarah: I don't even know, because they just seem so, um, inadequate now compared to what you ended up choosing. 

Jennie: Yeah, just like stupid, silly things, right? Yeah. And so, this movie came back up on a list whenever I did a search for something like “adventure funny”, it came up, and I like, um, Our Flags Mean Death, which is another, a series made by, um...

Um, Taika Watiti. I don't know if I'm saying his name right. I hope I am. I knew I liked that. I knew it was funny and it was kind of absurd. I knew it was a dark comedy. And the trailer for this movie makes it seem like it's just kind of a romp with a kind of misfit kid having a silly time. But, oh Sarah, I live texted you while watching it because it was both the absolute worst movie I could have watched.

And the absolute best, which is why I really wanted to talk about it today, because it did a lot for me, actually, thinking through grief, thinking through loss, thinking specifically through grief and loss of a pet, Also, kind of a misfit feeling and the hunt for the wilder people did that for me. And so I'm excited to talk about it today.

And I'm excited to talk about my sweet pup Epona and her place in our life and the way that this movie kind of helped us move through the grieving process with 

Sarah: her. Well, that's great. I think that was a really good introduction to both the context and the movie. Um, So, this movie, was from 2016, it was PG-13, um, an hour and forty-one minutes, and do you want me to read the IMDb?

Jennie: Yeah, read the IMDb description. Go for it. 

Sarah: Alright, I'm gonna do it. A national manhunt is ordered for a rebellious kid and his foster uncle who go missing in the wild New Zealand bush. 

Jennie: That's pretty accurate. I don't think that there's a lot more that needs to be said there because everything else is kind of that subtle feeling stuff that's very difficult to put into a description.

But I will say, listeners, because I wish I had had this warning because I might not have picked it for this night of all of our tender feelings being very exposed. It also has the death of a caregiver, it has the death of a pet, and it has a lot of weird kind of adult references that, um, kind of go over the head of the 13 year old protagonist, um, and kind of went over the head of my kids, but it definitely has some weird subtext and you will have to absolutely face death if you're talking, not like-it's not scary. It's not going to threaten your life, but you're going to have to have a death conversation. There is a funeral scene. There are remains in a box. There is, um, euthanizing a pet, which I think that's one of the things I texted you, Sarah, because I was sitting there trying to disappear into the couch, looking at my family being like, how did I pick this movie to do?

It ended up being okay, and I re-watched it again, you know, with fresh eyes and a clearer mind and heart today, and, um, it still holds up, man. It's actually a really good, funny movie, and I'm interested, Sarah, what was your viewing experience like of The Hunt for the Wilderpeople? Well, 

Sarah: I was really excited that you chose this and I was, um, I felt actually quite bad because I thought that I had seen all of his other movies, but this was one that I hadn't seen. Um, I'd even seen some of his stuff from, I think the early 2000s, but I hadn't seen this for some reason. I don't know how in the world I missed it.

Um, so I watched it with Alex and Violet. I tried to get Liam and his, um, friends who are visiting in town to watch it. one of whom actually has already seen it and loves this movie. but Liam in particular was like, No, we're gonna watch something else instead. So that's what they did. So Alex and I watched it, uh, with Violet and, I was impressed with how much she was laughing throughout it, and unfortunately, I think she did catch a lot of those references 

it was a good movie, I mean, um, we definitely laughed, um, and like, as I was watching it though, I was like, Oh, this is the part that Jenny was talking about. And then we watch a little bit more. Oh no, this is the part that Jenny was talking about. Cause like the whole time I was just thinking about you and your family when I was watching it.

It was like a very different watch than like just watching something for fun or even just watching something for screen cares. Cause I was watching this knowing that, It was, you know, kind of like a little bit of a lightning bolt to the heart, um, in some ways, I'm sure. it was, it was interesting. It was definitely a different, interesting view.

Jennie: And, and to that point about it being a different view and a different watch, I think at Screen Cares, we talk a lot about the connective power of movies. And then we talked, um, in season two, a lot about the ability of movies to build memories and to be kind of, I don't know, familial, you know, markers in time for movies, for events, for holidays.

And this movie, I knew the movie I picked right after our sixteen-year-old little furry family member died, was going to be a movie that I probably would remember. And I remember when the kids went over to their grandparents house whenever my husband and I took her to the vet for the last time. I remember they were like, I'm gonna watch, and it was just some dumb movie, like Terminator 2 or something, you know, at the grandparents house.

And I was like, yeah, just think about what you want to watch. Maybe don't watch anything for the first time. Today, you know, because I remember very, very intensely having memories of whenever my grandparents had died or other big moments in my life. Whenever I think back to that certain song, certain movies, certain clothing, all kinds are forever branded onto that experience.

And so I try to be careful of it and I accidentally lucked into a spectacularly perfect movie for it. I would not have chosen this if you had told me everything about um, the pets and the ant and all the things in it, I don't know if I would have thought I could handle that much kind of painful stuff, but ultimately it ended up being just gentle enough to kind of match our feelings and guide us through stuff.

So I really appreciated it. And so I'm interested, Sarah, before we go too much further, what, um, what screen shares rating would you give for Hunt for the Wilderpeople? 

Sarah: I would give this a. mostly because of the presence of conversations about death, about belonging, togetherness, family, grief, um, because those are things that are intergenerational.

Those are things that affect an entire unit. and I've realized that in my own family, those things are harder to talk about with my, you know, not immediate family, you know, like not just my kids and my husband. It's much harder to talk about death, about grief with like my dad or extended family members for whatever reason.

And I think this movie is light enough and funny enough and wacky enough that it would be able to sort of like, you know, help scoot you in that direction of a difficult conversation that was meaningful and about something real and heavy, um, without it feeling like, wow, thanks for being a buzzkill. You know?

So, I, I think, yeah, so totally Family Screen. Um, what about you? 

Jennie: I say Family Screen.  Hunt for the Wilderpeople because it's about the family you choose. It's about the family that chooses you and the family that lets you be you. So if that's your biological family, awesome. If it's your friends, great. If it's your extended family, if it's your work family, whatever it is, if it's even just your pet. If it's just those people who make you feel safe, then that's who you should watch this movie with.

Sarah: I agree. And, um, I have to ask, like, how was it for you, seeing this movie, um, because when I was watching it, I was thinking initially, like, who is the main character? because, like, we were sort of, I think, led to really feel for the kiddo, but also Sam Neill's character. Um, Uncle Heck, um, was super interesting, and we sort of follow him as well.

So, was there a particular character that really resonated with you as you were processing this really heavy grief?

Jennie: There's, um, the people who I was focused on, right, which I think was definitely Ricky Baker was the kid. I think I probably identified most with Aunt Bella. Because I think, um, there's a scene whenever he first comes to the house, whenever, um, she's, um, he goes to his room that she's made up from for the first time.

She's like, I know that you read. So I've got you some books and a nice Indian lamp and a good sharp knife in case you need to scare off any monsters in the night. And it was just that kind of like, thoughtfulness paired with like a little bit of cluelessness that I kind of can relate to. Like I'm trying so hard to be thoughtful, but maybe I'm not always doing the right things.

But I just loved how she let both people, Hector and Ricky, be themselves. And later, Heck refers to that, like she liked, um, to take people in and love them kind of for who they are. And she talked about letting wild horses be wild horses. And I love that, and I aspire to that, and there's some of the silliness and shenanigans that Ricky Baker got into.

I think he was definitely the focus for me, but reminded me of my own kids. Hmm. What about you? 

Sarah: Oh, I don't  know. There is, um, just something so interesting and powerful about seeing male characters, um, who have a story, have a past, um, um, a major trauma on a screen, but aren't affected by it. especially when that character is in very capable hands, like those of Sam Neill, because you can feel that there's something there.

You can feel that there's turmoil. You can feel that there's inner conflict. And, um, I, maybe it's just because I've been thinking a lot about, um, having a son and what all of this means for him. What, what does this big, scary world mean for him? You know, we, we hear a lot in the media about, um, toxic masculinity and all of this stuff.

But, you know, I think, without using those words, even though I just did, I think about that a lot. And so I was really interested in his character, especially as he was suddenly now supposed to be in the ooey-gooey lovey role that, um, his partner had been in before she died and now he, here he is, he's sort of trying to do the right thing, even though he sort of doesn't really want to, it's not really a choice that he's making Exactly.

He doesn't know how to do it. He doesn't know how to put a hot water bottle in the bed like, like she did. Um, he wouldn't know. The first thing about like little. cute tchotchke animal lamps. but yet he knows what it means to be there. And I think even more than that, he knows what it means to have somebody not be there for you and I thought that was really interesting. 

Jennie: That's an amazing point. And I think there's a point, after they've run away together. That's kind of the premise of the movie is it's five or six months of them on the run in the bush, in the woods, in the jungle, trying to stay away from CPS.

It's trying to take Ricky Baker back and also trying to imprison the uncle who they incorrectly think has done all sorts of terrible things. But he hasn't. there's a point when they're sitting by the fire and Ricky is kind of telling some things about what he's gone through and You can see, because like you said, the acting is so spot on, you can see in the exchange, whenever he pivots and realizes, Hey, this kid is a lot like me.

I know that pain. I see that pain. And there's like a real human connection there. And, um, that gets to one of the very first points and probably the biggest point I want to make about this movie. And it's this, that in our life. You get to choose who you love. You don't have to love anyone. Heck, the character in Hunt for the Wilderpeople tried really hard not to love people because I think he'd been pretty disappointed by everyone but Bella, and it was a little scary.

And I think the same for Ricky Baker. And I think that they had kind of given up on the idea that they were lovable. But they chose to love Bella. She chose to love them, despite the fact that they were broken, troubled people. And they chose to let each other in. And I think that whenever I had the loss of Epona, she's a pet, she isn't a person, I know that, but I ask myself, why did I put myself and my kids through this?

It was a completely optional thing to have a pet, right? It's not necessarily optional to have, you know, parents and grandparents and things, these kind of terrible sadnesses and partings that have to happen throughout someone's lifetime. But a pet, that's a choice. Why did I do this to my kids? And... I don't necessarily have a great answer.

That's different for everyone. But for us, it was definitely worth it. Right? Like, I think the loving is worth it. And I think that just remembering that is, um, And watching a movie like this definitely reminded me that there's a lot of reasons not to love people and not to let people in, but that's a really lonely place to be.

I'm glad we let Epona in. And I'm glad that these people let each other in in the movie. 

Sarah: What do you think it was about her when you, you've told me a little bit, but what do you think it was about her that sort of, cemented in your, both your mind and Justin's mind, like, that Epona was the one for you because you had other choices.

There were, there's maybe not millions, there's like tons and tons and tons of other dogs, pets, things out there. What was it about her? That drew you to her. Thank you for 

Jennie: asking that. Epona was our first pet in our marriage. We got her a couple months after we'd gotten married. And I remember that Justin was a cat person. At the time, he grew up a cat person. I know, Sarah, don't be scandalized. He's still a good man. Um, he was a cat person. Cat people are-I know a lot of good cat people.

There's some great cats out there. But, he was a cat person. I had only ever had dogs. We both have allergies to cats, so the fact he was a cat person was a little bit masochistic, but sure. we, we were looking through dog types and he discussed how whenever he was little, the only dog they'd ever had, and it was for a short period of time, was a Scottish Terrier, and we were looking into different breed types and something said, um, a description of a Scottish Terrier is that they were like the most cat like of dogs, which over her 16 years proved to be incredibly true.

I think whenever you luckily got to meet her that one time, um, You saw how she'll get just close enough to let you know that you are allowed to pet her, but she's not going to come all the way to you because she's not going to drop to your level. Like, if you want to pet her, you can get up and do it, but she's not going to make it easy.

Sarah: Oh my gosh, I love that. And yes, I, you know, there is just something, um, when you describe Epona, you have always described her as your fancy lady, like for the year, you know, all the years I've heard you talk about her, that is exactly. How you've always described her like I was like in my head. I was like, I'm gonna meet the fancy lady and like she truly was like she had sort of a Like she wasn't standoffish like because I've been around standoffish dogs and standoffish cats And that's what I don't like about cats and you know, or dogs that act that way.

I'm like Screw you then, like, you know, I gotta have that reaction. And that is not what she was giving. It was exactly like what you were saying. Like this very sweet, I wouldn't call her timid. She didn't really seem timid to me. It was sort of like, this is my space. You may occupy it. You will have to come to occupy it and kiss the ring.

But like, she was still very, like, gracious about it. She wasn't snotty about it. It was just sort of that, like, I don't know. Like, you know, I just, I loved it. It was so sweet and so distinct. 

Jennie: You really describe it so perfectly. It's almost like royalty. Like, you don't expect them to let them hug you. Like, you don't expect that, but if they, like, wave at you, like, ooh, like, how warm and...

Yeah. Like, um, she's a dog that, like, wore pearls every day of her life, even though she didn't. And so I want you to look at the bottom of our show notes, if you will. And let's go down... Thank you, also, listeners and Sarah for going down this... Ipohono the dog memory lane. Um, just because she's a special girl to us.

So you can see the first picture. Sarah, what do you see there? 

Sarah: Oh my gosh. Wow. When I got to meet her, she had all this. Like kind of like salt and pepper silvery distinguished stuff going on and she's like a little black puppy there. And oh my gosh, I, but you know, I have to say my eyes were drawn to the baby picture of Epona meeting the baby. I'm assuming that's Maxwell. 

Jennie: She always had this quiet dignity and I was so scared two years ago when we made the heartbreaking decision to amputate her leg. It was a Texas A&M Veterinary Center. They did an amazing job. It saved her life. She was going to die from a slow progression of cancer in her bones if it wasn't amputated.

And It was a really hard decision to have her leg cut off because she was so dignified and I didn't know if she would just kind of quit and not be able to walk and would just be old and in pain and unable to walk.

But within days of her surgery, she was falling, but getting up and she wasn't sad about it. She wasn't sorry for herself and that's what one of the veterinarians said. She said pets get over these things a lot easier than people because they don't feel sorry for themselves. And I was just like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

And I hadn't really thought about how much feeling sorry for myself held me up sometimes in healing. And she taught me that in a really real way, and she taught my kids that. And we knew that her days were all A gift at that point every, every day of the two years after, after her amputation was a gift.

And you can see there's pictures of her running around at the beach and getting into mischief and still, you know, knocking things over and causing trouble. And the last picture is her on her 16th birthday party, her sweet 16 that we had for her. And I just think that... And I want that for myself, I want it for my kids, my family, my loved ones, just that feeling of a life completely lived.

And I think it's easier to look at it in the smaller span of a pet's life sometimes than in our own. 

Sarah: Well, and I think what's really hard, I've, I've thought a lot about this, in preparation for our conversation today, and just kind of over the course of my life too, like, um, Seeing human loved ones die, and seeing loved furry members of our family die, there is something that is different.

And not less painful when you're talking about a pet. Um, and I'm not trying to minimize the loss of a human, but, um, something that you were talking about then, um, just sort of about the things that you were doing for Epona. Um, like taking her to that big hospital is a big deal. You know, you could have just taken her to the local vet and just like, well, you know, it's cancer and just kind of let it be that because cancer in an older pet, not, you know, the best.

prognosis to get, for sure, but you took her there. You were trying to give her, you know, all of the best days and the best memories with your family, like, that you could, um, save her from as much pain as you could. and there's a level of, like, caretaking that it's not what we always get to do for the humans in our lives.

and then, you know, I, interrupt me if you don't want me to talk about this, but like, even the final decisions that we have to make for our pets are decisions that we don't make for the humans in our life, and that level of caretaking speaks to a selfless love that I think is really reserved for people who have pets and who choose to love pets as fully as you and Justin, as your kids have done.

And I think that's something that really has to be honored, because it is distinct. It is special and, um, it's hard, so hard. 

Jennie: It is. And I, and I, I'm, I do feel comfortable talking about it because I've talked about it quite a bit with my kids after this happened. And I think. Listening to you kind of describes that process and how it is so hard and different in some ways, and how much love and care you put into your pet.

And I know you've put an incredible amount of love and care into your dog, Odin, as well. And I think that to answer my earlier question that I hadn't quite formed an answer to yet, why did I do this to our family? Why did we have a pet? Why did we add this extra thing to care for and love and eventually lose?

And I think part of it is because there's joy. And loving anything, even if you know you're going to lose it, but two, as a parent, I wanted my kids to see this is how we love, this is how we care for people, and this is how we honor the things we love when they're gone, because I won't, unfortunately, be here whenever they have to mourn my loss, me being here to kind of guide them through this smaller loss, although deeply painful, is a way that I can show them And I know that whenever you lose a family member, there's so many other things that go into it.

There's just a lot of other kind of bureaucratic silliness that there just isn't. It's a much, it's just a, when your dog dies, your dog dies. And there's not a whole lot of upkeep to do after that. But you're able to really focus on the feelings in a way that sometimes whenever a family member dies, there's so much else going on.

That it's um, kind of a delayed, processing sometimes what has it been like for you to make the choices you have to put so much time and love and effort into Odin?

Because he's had some scary moments as well. with, um, cancer and different illnesses. 

Sarah: Yeah, I mean, you know what? This is sort of what happens when you get a free dog off Craigslist. Um, if you spend a lot more than zero dollars on said dog. Um, but you know, yes, Odin, we have, we have done all the things just like you have done for Epona.

We have traveled to large university academic centers for second and third and fourth opinions on his cancer diagnosis. you know, he's had all the things, he's been a very lucky boy and we feel very grateful for that. Solely because of our flippant decision to, um, get pet insurance the way that we did, we are able to do a lot of things that we absolutely would not have been able to financially ever do for him.

Like, he has had fancy, stereotactic radiation. um, to his tumor. He's had, um, which is something that people get. He has had multiple rounds of that. He's had, he's exhausted all the rounds of, um, sort of the gold standard of chemo for this particular type of cancer. And now he's on a second line drug.

He's had his spleen removed. He's had the tumor, and a large part of the muscle removed. Um, and that's just for his cancer treatment. He's had tons and tons and tons. I think he's on his ninth of Or 10th round of chemo at this point, um, over the last two years and right now there's no sign of it. and he's happy and he's playful and, it's sort of, um, I think, It's a little bit conflicting for us because we were not able to provide all of this for our first dog, and you know, he, we had to euthanize him when he had a really bad case of bloat. and that's something that, you know, bigger dogs get, um, or can get. and that was kind of traumatizing. And then just kind of, I think we knew that when we would get another dog, we sort of, silently. I don't know that we even said it out loud.

we sort of committed to, at the time, non-existent dog, that, if we were going to take them into our family, that we were going to be committed to them. I think it's really important If you choose to adopt a pet or have a pet that you don't just, like, give it food occasionally.

Like, you kind of have to try to do the best that you can. And I'm not saying, like, put yourself in debt. Like, definitely don't do that. but, like, these are living creatures and, um, I don't know. I think they do so much for us that... I would feel like a, um, just a really bad person if I didn't show my kids that, if there's an opportunity for health, for happiness, for treatment, whether it's, you know, a dog or a person, like you take the risk because life is worth it to try.

And I think, you know, we really talk a lot about optimism in our family, and I think this is one way that we can show our kids, um, not just love, but like, optimism in chance taking. 

Jennie: I think something you said, too, It's kind of an important distinction that we make with our kids, too, when we've been talking about these hard decisions with our pets.

And for different people who are in different places and stages of their life, it's not that you do everything for your pet because you could seriously spend a mortgage worth of money on a pet. Oh, 100%. But... It's doing everything you can, and that's going to be different for everyone, and this is something the vet said, she can't tell me when she hurts. She can't advocate for herself.

She can't do the things that a person can do. And so in that way, you're even more a steward of their well being. In the same way that you are with a baby. And that was actually one of the, one of the points that this brought up for me. And, it's gonna be one of our screen spark questions actually, which I'll just say now, “What role does caretaking for something play a role in your formation of love and commitment to someone?” and that's not always fun, and it's not always easy, and in the case of our dog, and in the case of several characters and pets in the movie Hunt for the Wilderpeople, um, they did not do the fun thing, they did not do the easy thing, they did not, just give the kid or the people what they wanted, they did the thing that was hard, that was, um, compassionate, and that is something I think that we can learn from loving and losing things.

Sarah: I love that point, that's something that's really, um, I think an important distinction to talk about, um, because, you know, I've just been kind of thinking about, um, some of the things that we've been talking about today about, um, love and, um, grief and, um, just loving a pet versus a family member.

And I think you've hit on exactly, um, You know, such an astute point here for why this is so relevant and why this felt like a little lightning bolt to the heart when you're watching that right after losing Epona. it's something that you said. It's like, you know, there are times when you are going to want to go to the ends of the earth, for the people that you love, for the animals that you love, for those that you're taking care of and responsible for.

Um, but you're right, like, and I think that doesn't always mean life, and I think that's the most difficult thing. I think that really speaks to a level of just selflessness that you have, and I think that's how we know that it's real love. not only is it doing what was right for her, but you were doing what was right for her, even though it was shattering your heart. And that’s hard.

Jennie: It is. And I think when I was making, having the conversation with the vet about it and we realized that there was no, hopeful outcome, like there was no, um, There was no way out that didn't involve just increasing amounts of pain and they said would you want to do it today or tomorrow and first off that kind of scheduling of life and humanity is heartbreaking and terrible and I hate it I very clearly thought to myself, well, that would just be for me.

I would just be getting one more day with her. Like, she'll just be in pain for 24 more hours. Like, and, and with pain that's just getting worse. And in some ways, in this movie, Heck tried to cut Ricky Freeh earlier because he thought he would cause him more pain. He thought he was doing the, you know, the empathetic thing there, but he did, he didn't see that there really was hope there.

He needed to open up his own heart a little bit more and see... see that he wasn't that broken. He wasn't the problem, right? And so I think that it's realizing that love is often letting go. Love is knowing when it's just for you and when it's for the person. I think that that's something that this movie just reminded me of.

It just really reminded me of it in a really clear way. But it was also just a delightful movie and, um, it was also that, it was also just a great movie that gave us just enough levity to allow us to breathe in between the hard moments. 

Sarah: I think also what was interesting about Heck and Ricky and about you and Epona and Justin and Epona and your whole family and Epona is that Not only was it choosing what was right, and you were choosing each other, you were choosing love, you were choosing, to make those hard choices, but you were also opening yourselves up, And I think that that's something that sometimes we forget to talk about, like when we talk about love, or we talk about grief, or we talk about death. You actually have to accept the reality of that, you know. Unfortunately, there are not many things that last forever. And We want them to, with all of our hearts, all of our souls, you know, certainly like I wish that my mom was here or my dog Orion was here and I wish that Epona was here.

I wish, I wish, you know, all of those loved ones could stay forever. but we have to look that in the face sometimes. And I think that was also what was hard for Heck is like he couldn't look at Ricky and be like, you know, I'm also not going to always be here for you. And I think there was sort of an unspoken that too, like an impermanence that I think was hard to accept.

And I think that when both of them were able to accept like, yeah, nothing lasts forever, but we're here now. And I think that's okay. That's, that's okay. 

Jennie: We also, in a very unspoken way, as an early married couple, decided we want to care for something together. If it was an iguana or a dog, we wanted to care for something, right? And so... 

Sarah: She’s a lot cuter than an iguana. 

Jennie: A lot cuter. Way cuter. And her little, her little face. I don't know if you can tell, but in the pictures, whenever she was little, her little legs were shorter than her face was long.

And so when you'd sit her down, her little face would hit the ground before her feet. What? That's so cute. Because her little dog, her scotty nose was so cute. so big. And Justin and I definitely created a whole persona for her. You've heard me speak in her voice. Like she, she has her whole own personality.

And it was the fact that we did open ourselves up to choose to love her. We opened ourselves up to choose to have children. And we open ourselves up every day to let people into our life and our hearts. I have, of course, been thinking quite a bit about grief, and there's one quote that, um, I've heard variations of, and there's so many grief quotes, but this one felt relevant right now.

And it was the idea that grief is just love with no place to go, which is by Jamie Anderson, who is a writer director of Doctor Who, which feels irrelevant, it just goes to show you that everyone experiences grief, and who anyone can land on an amazing quote. Even sci-fi writers, so nice. But the idea that grief is just love with no place to go, and the idea that grief and love are kind of partners, partner feelings, I felt that so much, I had my first bowl of cereal after Epona died and I didn't have anyone to drink my extra milk. And it's those quiet, small moments that make a relationship and two. Where you have nowhere to put that love and I went to put my bowl down and there was no one to give that love to in that moment.

And so I just sat with it, you know, and I think that that's something to remember that that love can last. It can still be there. And I'm doing my best to kind of shepherd my kids through this time in a way that honors their loss and also prepares them for the future. And I think in the movie, I want to circle in on this last point.

They hadn't really been talking about the loss of the ant, and then, without giving too much away, one of the pets ended up having to be euthanized, which was really on the nose, from my experience, and I can't believe this movie was happening, while I was watching it, because it was so on the nose, really, but, It wasn't until they built the little gravestone, the little cairn, for the dog that they were able to talk about Bella.

That they were able to release her ashes. And I think for me, that's part of what it is about losing a pet. You miss them in their own right, but it's a small opening that you're able to make for yourself. Where you can kind of purely look at why grief and death are so sad. Because we all know that... Life isn't permanent or relationships aren't permanent the same way that Ricky's home life wasn't permanent as a foster child and Nothing kind of is forever, but just to kind of look at it and say okay, but I have now that's kind of the biggest thing I've been trying to give my kids is the you love because loving is good because it leaves the world better than you found it, which is something we always strive to do and If I have to live with grief, it's still better than not have had the love.

Sarah: That's just so beautifully said, that's so beautifully said, and I think, I'm glad that you were able to share this because I think that, um, there's something very lonely about losing a pet, because, um, when I lost our dog, Orion, um, a lot of people were like, yeah, it's, I'm sorry your dog died. But kind of like, and then dot, dot, dot, like the silent, like, but get over it kind of thing.

And nobody who has not lost a pet will understand the sort of sensory, tactile nature of having a pet in your life that is very different than having other humans in your life. Like you're not constantly petting humans, you know, like. They don't have little jingle collars that you hear. You don't hear their little, you know, there's scents, there's sounds, there's things to touch, there's, you know, all sorts of things that happen when there's pets in your life.

And it's a very difficult physical realization when all of those sensations, all of those sensory experiences are gone. I think that it's really, I think it's really important that you were able to share this today because I am guessing that there is somebody who has experienced a loss like this, who has felt alone, or didn't have a way to articulate or process this sort of grief that is very, very real and I'm just, I'm just so sorry that you and your family had to go through this and I'm, I'm also just We're really impressed with the way that you loved her and the way that you respected her life the way that you did and The honor that you gave her by teaching her boys about love Through having something so beautiful in your life I think that just says a lot about you guys.

Jennie:  And I wanted to thank you, too. Whenever I was kind of in the thick of it right after it happened. You asked me, what were some of your favorite memories about Epona? And I realized that my husband was having the same conversation at the same time with my kids at bedtime. And I think that love has that ability to kind of open up people and, and show that vulnerability.

And it's, it's nice to do that. And so. I want to, you know, get into our screen sparks just because in case you have had an experience like this and you've been kind of left alone, I think one question is, what's something that you loved, a memory that you loved about that person? You know, I bet that the time in the movie where she sang that song on his 13th birthday was probably a favorite time for them.

So what's something that makes it? 

Sarah: Definitely was a favorite time for you. 

Jennie: I love it so much. It's such a quirky, sweet thing. Um, but what's something you love about someone that maybe you've lost? You know, what's a way that you can let that grief out a little bit and let it breathe a little more as love, and realizing that that loss really change as much as its loss.

Sarah: a question that I had, how can we support those who are grieving, how would you want to be supported if you have lost somebody or something? And I think that's different for all of us, I'm guessing that it means at least, at a bare minimum, an acknowledgement. Um, but I think all of us are different in how we would process that kind of pain. 

Jennie: Another question I, I think... It'll be a good last question to think on is, does thinking about death give value to life?

I really like that. And I think that for me, I think the answer is yes. I think that it's an honest thing to think about. I've been reading the boys a series of poems every night at bedtime, and it just so happened that one of the poems we had just read around the time that we lost Epona was a poem by Robert Frost called Nothing Gold Can Stay. And I'd like to end with this poem because I think it really references a lot of what we've talked about, the ideas that, You live life to its fullest, but life is going to fade.

It's going to change. You'll have loss. But looking at that, that question of, is thinking about death part of the way to honor life? I just think that this movie and this poem both really, really, um, hit the nail on the head, that life is beautiful, death is inevitable, but it really is just change, and that you can do with that what you will, and loving and remembering is a perfect tribute. So, I'll end with the poem that I read to my kids the night that Epona died, Nothing Gold Can Stay by Robert Frost.

Nature's first green is gold, her hardest hue to hold. Her early leaf's a flower, but only so an hour. Then leaf subsides to leaf, so Eden sank to grief. So dawn goes down today. Nothing gold can stay. And the other thing I have to say that this movie reminds me of, even though I wouldn't have picked to be so sad and, um, melancholy when I picked the movie, it reminded me of one extra thing that Robert Frost didn't work in and that it's still okay to laugh.

And Epona would have wanted me to laugh because she was a silly girl, even if she was fancy. And I think that's one thing pets give us. They give us a laugh and they teach us to love and laugh. Just like this movie was. Full of grief, but also full of laughter. And so, even if nothing gold can stay, you can acknowledge it, and you can still love and laugh through everything.

Outro 

(music) Thank you for letting us share our screens with you this week. We hope that you keep watching for the meeting behind the screen. Don't forget to like and subscribe to Screen Cares wherever you listen to your podcasts, check out our show notes for great info and to visit our website www.screencares.com or check out our social media pages for great resources. 

Epona Video https://www.facebook.com/34319057/videos/pcb.10107556173420034/2581614121986457